To GAMI a Ram VI or not

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  • #84982

    I have my plane in the shop and for 2,300 I can get it setup with GAMI injectors.

    I’d like to run LOP because I think both for range and cost it would be a huge win. I fly TSIO-550’s all the time and a couple other Cirrus that are always LOP in operations and it’s a huge win.

    Question for all of you with experience:
    A) Can I run GAMI and LOP operations on RAM VI
    B) Is this worth doing or is there far more to the picture vs just the injectors.

    Thanks

    #104546

    Do you have an engine analyzer? This is a must for LOP operation.
    Pete

    #104547

    Yes, having a new Insight G4 Twin installed this next week when I planned to do the GAMI

    #104549
    quote khouseholder1:

    I have my plane in the shop and for 2,300 I can get it setup with GAMI injectors.

    I’d like to run LOP because I think both for range and cost it would be a huge win. I fly TSIO-550’s all the time and a couple other Cirrus that are always LOP in operations and it’s a huge win.

    Question for all of you with experience:
    A) Can I run GAMI and LOP operations on RAM VI
    B) Is this worth doing or is there far more to the picture vs just the injectors.

    Thanks

    you better check with Ram. With out doing some research I don’t think Ram looks favorable on LOP operations.

    #104550

    The issue is whether your engines are still under warranty or not. If so, RAM claims they will know if you run LOP and void your warranty. If not, then LOP away. So long as the engines are otherwise working properly (ignition, induction, etc.) you ought to have no issues.

    If I bought a plane with RAM engines, I’d run LOP without question.

    #104551

    Only because you asked the question, I assume you have not run into this course. http://www.advancedpilot.com/onlinecourse.html

    I had an Insight engine monitor that I never did figure out how to do much with before I installed a new system that made it easy. I stumbled upon the APS seminars investigating GAMI. I have done the On-Line and Live Seminars – in retrospect, the On-Line was more than enough to learn the LOP subject in depth.

    I don’t know why RAM is adverse to LOP operations. It is my assumption it is not technical but rather legal. They do not want to defend recommending anything other than what the POH included. I think it is that simple.

    Did you do a GAMI Lean Test? If you have not, don’t waste your time buying and installing a set of GAMI injectors off the shelf because you will just be swapping out one or more to get the fuel air balance dialed in. (been there)

    It was all a mystery to me until I completed the On-Line APS course. I had read articles with interest but just did not get it. I do now. In a nut shell, you will not blow anything up <65%, >65% you need to understand the dynamics better. Plus, if you do not get the fuel/air balance right, the motor(s) run rough due to the different cylinder HP produced.

    I am still working on getting my F/A balance nailed. I have 3 injectors on my desk (1 for one engine/2 for the other) to get this dialed in better. It is easy to fine tune with my JPI set to 2 second scan, doing the lean test properly and then looking at the data in Excel or Savvy.

    I can add an hour easy to my endurance and loose < 5 kts in the process. I would have wagered a lot of money that the cylinders would be hotter, but they run a lot cooler at LOP. There is a reason, it all becomes clear with the APS course.

    I think you need a good engine monitor to run ROP (unless your run 100 DF+ ROP) vs LOP. An engine monitor that can record data is very helpful getting the fuel air balance right so all 6 peak at the near the same fuel flow.

    Ted and others have been talking about LOP for a long time here….until recently, I just pushed next as I could not grasp the concept.

    Jim

    And one last note. It is not as easy to get our motors to run LOP as other installations of the same engine type. I was told by a guy at GAMI they don’t know exactly why but suspect it is the angle (not level side to side) the engines are mounted. The most difficult to get the FA balance nailed is on the RT engine.

    Jim

    #104553

    I have a 414A RAM VII that I upgraded with GAMI injectors after running a lean test and having GAMI review. GAMI originally sent out a complete set for both engines and since then I’ve swapped out 3 injectors to fine tune fuel flow. At 69% power cylinders are less than 280-320 degrees, TIT is 1500-1540, fuel flow is 26gph for a TAS of 185 knots at 17k. Pretty good deal in my opinion for a few knots. That equates to a $2k worth of fuel savings every 60 hours and about 150 miles more max range.

    Jeff

    #104557
    quote jrecker:

    26gph for a TAS of 185 knots at 17k.
    Jeff

    That is huge! I’m burnin 42GPH right now!

    #104558

    We have GAMI’s, G4 monitor etc. I took the APS online course when I flew our turbo normalized A-36 LOP. It also had GAMI’s and ran super smooth at 14gph. I now have a 421C with RAM engines under warranty. That’s the good news. Until the warranty depreciates, we won’t run LOP because that would void the warranty. That’s the bad news. I wish RAM would get with the program on LOP ops. It’s proven science, not OWT’s.
    We bought the 421 knowing the costs, so I’m not bitching about the fuel expense. I think RAM is being way too conservative.

    #104559
    quote MMatheson1:

    We have GAMI’s, G4 monitor etc. I took the APS online course when I flew our turbo normalized A-36 LOP. It also had GAMI’s and ran super smooth at 14gph. I now have a 421C with RAM engines under warranty. That’s the good news. Until the warranty depreciates, we won’t run LOP because that would void the warranty. That’s the bad news. I wish RAM would get with the program on LOP ops. It’s proven science, not OWT’s.
    We bought the 421 knowing the costs, so I’m not bitching about the fuel expense. I think RAM is being way too conservative.

    Keep in mind, RAM is trying to keep their warranty costs down. And while those of us who are educated can run LOP quite well, there are many people who aren’t, and they blow up engines. In my “Dollars and Sense” series last year, I explained some of the logic behind mandating ROP for OEMs. RAM is effectively an OEM.

    I disagree with their banning of LOP ops for sure, but I also understand it. My response is simple – they just won’t get my business for engine overhauls.

    #104560

    Good point. I wonder how RAM determines whether you run LOP or otherwise without engine monitor data?

    #104562
    quote MMatheson1:

    Good point. I wonder how RAM determines whether you run LOP or otherwise without engine monitor data?

    As I recall, their claim will be in looking at the cylinders. I think it does make sense, since if people are running their engines as specified, they should be able to tell by looking if an engine is different. For most, probably the threat of the warranty being voided on $100,000+ worth of engines is sufficient to ensure compliance.

    #104568

    I had a long conversation with RAM about LOP operations and the reason they told me they don’t support LOP operations is because TCM does not support LOP operations on the engines used in our planes. Since there is no defined procedure from TCM for LOP operations, RAM is not willing to design their own procedures. They explained to me that they see the procedure to run LOP as “complicated” and they are concerned that some pilots could easily implement the procedure improperly. Frankly, given the litigious world we live in, I don’t blame them for their stance unless TCM was behind the procedure also.

    Having said all that, I have only heard positive comments about RAM’s warranty work. In fact, when the plane I now own developed a vibration in one of the new RAM VII engines shortly after installation, they sent a pilot to pick up the plane, flew it back to Waco, and replaced BOTH engines which had less than 100 hours on them…no charge. Now that was a long time ago and I cannot speak to their current practices, but in 5 years of monitoring the posts in this group and the CPA, I have never heard of an owner that was denied warranty work because they flew their engines LOP. Of course that doesn’t mean they won’t…but to me it means they must not do it very often, if at all. If they did, we would certainly hear about it. BTW, they DO support GAMI injectors and will move them from your old engines to the new ones.

    The engines in my plane are nearly 300 hours over TBO and when it’s time to replace them I will certainly use RAM again. I save 10 GPH in fuel burn running LOP and lose less than 5 kts of TAS. If you do the math, that will save nearly $96,000 over the life of the engines if they only go to TBO and the price of fuel stays at $6. That is enough AMU’s to pay for at least one engine…not to mention the endurance improvement. When I put new RAM’s in this plane, I’ll fly for a hundred hours or so ROP to make sure everything breaks in OK and then I’m going LOP from then on.
    Pete

    #104569
    sworley
    Participant

      Kelly have you tried flying at peak EGT around 55% power? I’m not sure about your TSIO but on the GTSIO you can do that while being outside the redbox, operating according to the POH, and getting good economy without GAMIs. To me it seems like the best of all worlds.

      #104570
      quote SWORLEY:

      Kelly have you tried flying at peak EGT around 55% power? I’m not sure about your TSIO but on the GTSIO you can do that while being outside the redbox, operating according to the POH, and getting good economy without GAMIs. To me it seems like the best of all worlds.

      True, but if you operate LOP 55% power (start from say a 60% power mixture to achieve a true 55%) your fuel burn will be a little bit lower, as will your temperatures. On the well-cooled GTSIO this may be less of a concern, but certainly for those of us with D-rocker cylinders, it’s nicer to be able to get cooler. Peak would not get me below 380F on the hottest head in the summer with my naturally aspirated engines, I need LOP for that.

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