Initial Training in 421C…

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  • #83973

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    #97281
    quote ksisson:

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    Hi, I looked at their web site. It does not appear they have a 421C simulator, and probably train in the King air simulator?

    I suggest checking out RTC (which trains in a ok Cessna 340 sim that is very similar to a 421c). I did RTC initial and Simcom recurrent. I learned more in the Simcom class as their instructor had specific 421C experience. They also had a 421C specific sim (went to Scottsdale).

    For any course, you need to put the effort in too and come prepared. How much in plane transition training are you doing?

    Eric

    #97283

    I’d really suggest SimCom – I think they are the only ones that have a real 421 cockpit. In Dallas they have 2 (one motion, one non-motion, but the non-motion is better), and they have at least one in Scotsdale (supposedly a better simulator than the one in Dallas, but I don’t have any personal experience).

    Especially for initial training, at least 1/2 the battle is figuring out where the switches and levers are, and you can’t develop the muscle memory unless you are in a sim with the cockpit of the airplane you’re actually flying.

    Robert

    #97286

    Ask for Ray at Simcom Scottsdale. He knows all of the systems in and out. You won’t be disappointed.

    #97289
    quote ksisson:

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    I have had a good experience with RTC in Champaign Ill; training in their 340 simulator. The training is one on one with no co-pilot ,which is how I operate the plane. It`s substantially less expensive than Flight Safety and the Sim time and instructor quality has been generally excellent.

    #97293
    quote gcarwell:

    quote ksisson:

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    I have had a good experience with RTC in Champaign Ill; training in their 340 simulator. The training is one on one with no co-pilot ,which is how I operate the plane. It`s substantially less expensive than Flight Safety and the Sim time and instructor quality has been generally excellent.

    I agree. My instructor at RTC had about 300 hours flying the 421 and was very knowledgeable. Cost is significantly less that SimCom, but their materials and simulators are a bit better, although the 340 sim at RTC is nice with everything working. The nice thing about RTC is that all of your instructor, ground, and flight scenarios are one on one and they will only add an additional one to your class if you want or request it.

    I do plan on doing recurrent with SimCom just to compare the two, but I have materials from both companies and SimCom does provide a higher quality printed product, although the one on one instruction is invaluable.

    #97294
    quote EPANNING:

    quote ksisson:

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    Hi, I looked at their web site. It does not appear they have a 421C simulator, and probably train in the King air simulator?

    I suggest checking out RTC (which trains in a ok Cessna 340 sim that is very similar to a 421c). I did RTC initial and Simcom recurrent. I learned more in the Simcom class as their instructor had specific 421C experience. They also had a 421C specific sim (went to Scottsdale).

    For any course, you need to put the effort in too and come prepared. How much in plane transition training are you doing?

    Eric

    My insurance company is requiring 50 hrs dual and 15 hrs solo in plane. Because of timing considerations, I will likely have a large chunk of the 50 dual done before I will be able to get away for sim training.

    #97295
    quote ksisson:

    quote EPANNING:

    quote ksisson:

    Does anyone have any experience with Glass Simulator in Aurora, IL for intial 421C (or other model Twin Cessna) training?

    Hi, I looked at their web site. It does not appear they have a 421C simulator, and probably train in the King air simulator?

    I suggest checking out RTC (which trains in a ok Cessna 340 sim that is very similar to a 421c). I did RTC initial and Simcom recurrent. I learned more in the Simcom class as their instructor had specific 421C experience. They also had a 421C specific sim (went to Scottsdale).

    For any course, you need to put the effort in too and come prepared. How much in plane transition training are you doing?

    Eric

    My insurance company is requiring 50 hrs dual and 15 hrs solo in plane. Because of timing considerations, I will likely have a large chunk of the 50 dual done before I will be able to get away for sim training.

    Wow, 50 hrs dual is huge. What are you planning on doing? I would strongly suggest LOFT type training. So, if your typical mission is flights are Boston to Florida, etc that is what you would focus your training on. Try to find someone who is exceptional in actual weather experience and that you get along with too.

    As you build dual hours, make sure you get experience with different loadings (people and fuel) as the plane performance is very different. My experience is my best landings are with passengers. With 50 hrs dual, I would seek out Simcom training in a 421C panel. It will avoid confusion. 65 (50+15) hrs is ~ 15k in fuel alone so the cost of Simcom/Flight safety is not that much incrementally.

    #97299
    quote EPANNING:

    With 50 hrs dual, I would seek out Simcom training in a 421C panel. It will avoid confusion. 65 (50+15) hrs is ~ 15k in fuel alone so the cost of Simcom/Flight safety is not that much incrementally.

    Also, the insurance companies generally will let you take the 10 hours of sim time you get in an initial course towards your dual.

    What were you flying before? I’m a bit surprised at the 50 hours of dual.

    Robert

    #97302
    quote RCJOHNSON:

    quote EPANNING:

    With 50 hrs dual, I would seek out Simcom training in a 421C panel. It will avoid confusion. 65 (50+15) hrs is ~ 15k in fuel alone so the cost of Simcom/Flight safety is not that much incrementally.

    Also, the insurance companies generally will let you take the 10 hours of sim time you get in an initial course towards your dual.

    What were you flying before? I’m a bit surprised at the 50 hours of dual.

    Robert

    Robert

    I am moving up from a HPSE (Cessna T206) with almost no multi time. That’s the reason for the 50 hours of dual, which I am ok with. Really just trying to figure out if Simcom is signifcantly better (ie. worth the extra cost and extra day) compared to other places like RTC and Glass Simulator. Seems like people believe that it is.

    Kevin

    #97303
    quote ksisson:

    Robert

    I am moving up from a HPSE (Cessna T206) with almost no multi time. That’s the reason for the 50 hours of dual, which I am ok with. Really just trying to figure out if Simcom is signifcantly better (ie. worth the extra cost and extra day) compared to other places like RTC and Glass Simulator. Seems like people believe that it is.

    Kevin

    Interesting – I moved up from a T210 and only needed the initial course (5 days at Simcom), 25 dual (10 of which were in the sim) and another 15 “solo” before passenger liability kicked in. I was commercial multi with 5.5 hours of multi time, but a lot of complex SE retract time…

    I liked the Simcom initial. As I said earlier, I think it’s a HUGE help to have an actual 421 cockpit to train in. Learning 421 procedures in a Cessna 340 cockpit really won’t do you any good.

    Yeah, it may cost a little more to go to Simcom, but it’s only a couple of tanks of gas. You’ll soon learn that in a 421, anything under $1k isn’t worth sweating about.

    Robert

    #97306

    Kevin
    Where are you located? Sim training is good but there is no comparison to actually flying a 421. Engine out practice in the sim won’t be close to the real thing. Unless your insurance is actually requiring a sim for your initial I would consider an in plane initial over a sim. I dont know if Ron Cox is still training but someone like him would be a great initial. I would also talk to TAS aviation. I think they have a training program. Having a twin Cessna guru train you would be a much more valuable experience than a sim. If you are anywhere near Atlanta, spend a few hours flying with Jimmy Garland at S&S at CNI. He will teach you more about your 421 than any sim.
    Good Luck

    #97322
    quote SGERBER:

    Kevin
    Where are you located? Sim training is good but there is no comparison to actually flying a 421. Engine out practice in the sim won’t be close to the real thing. Unless your insurance is actually requiring a sim for your initial I would consider an in plane initial over a sim. I dont know if Ron Cox is still training but someone like him would be a great initial. I would also talk to TAS aviation. I think they have a training program. Having a twin Cessna guru train you would be a much more valuable experience than a sim. If you are anywhere near Atlanta, spend a few hours flying with Jimmy Garland at S&S at CNI. He will teach you more about your 421 than any sim.
    Good Luck

    How do you practice engine outs on departure in the airplane? Have you flown the 421 sim at Scottsdale?

    #97325
    pmcnamee
    Participant

      JMHO. The simulators for Propeller driven airplanes are worthless for engine-out training.

      My log book shows 5 different 300/400 series Cessna simulators, Navajo, Cheyenne, KingAir 200, Conquest I and II. I have simulator type ratings in B737, 747,757,767, and DC10. Those Full motion simulators in the airline industry cost about $30 million each and are pretty realistic in terms of control feedback. The Twin Cessna simulators have very little control feedback at all.

      If your insurance carrier requires you to go to some course, then go. You will learn a lot, but you will not gain the experience required to be a safe pilot. You need to go out and experience and practice engine out procedures in YOUR type of aircraft. Engine out procedures practice in the airplane if done properly does little harm to the engines. I estimate 500 hours instruction given in 300/400 series Cessna with an engine simulated shut down. Average a simulated engine failure every 5 minutes during an hour of training.
      I have never experienced any engine damage in 35 years of Multi-engine instructing.

      Correction…. I had a pilot I was checking out in a C414. We had shut an engine down for about 5 minutes for training. I didn’t notice that he by mistake placed the fuel pump switch to LOW instead of OFF. When the unfeathering accumulator started the engine it “hydrostatic locked” a cylinder which bent a connecting rod 90 degrees and hit the inside of the crankcase. That ended in a textbook single engine landing.

      More and more insurance companies are accepting non-simulator training courses. There are insurance approved Instructors that have programs that use a combination of computer based training for the equipment you have onboard, and the airplane for the real world stuff.

      Take a vacation in Hawaii and I will Fly with. Fly Safe.

      Keep’em Flying

      Pat

      #97328
      quote PMCNAMEE:

      JMHO. The simulators for Propeller driven airplanes are worthless for engine-out training.

      My log book shows 5 different 300/400 series Cessna simulators, Navajo, Cheyenne, KingAir 200, Conquest I and II. I have simulator type ratings in B737, 747,757,767, and DC10. Those Full motion simulators in the airline industry cost about $30 million each and are pretty realistic in terms of control feedback. The Twin Cessna simulators have very little control feedback at all.

      If your insurance carrier requires you to go to some course, then go. You will learn a lot, but you will not gain the experience required to be a safe pilot. You need to go out and experience and practice engine out procedures in YOUR type of aircraft. Engine out procedures practice in the airplane if done properly does little harm to the engines. I estimate 500 hours instruction given in 300/400 series Cessna with an engine simulated shut down. Average a simulated engine failure every 5 minutes during an hour of training.
      I have never experienced any engine damage in 35 years of Multi-engine instructing.

      Correction…. I had a pilot I was checking out in a C414. We had shut an engine down for about 5 minutes for training. I didn’t notice that he by mistake placed the fuel pump switch to LOW instead of OFF. When the unfeathering accumulator started the engine it “hydrostatic locked” a cylinder which bent a connecting rod 90 degrees and hit the inside of the crankcase. That ended in a textbook single engine landing.

      More and more insurance companies are accepting non-simulator training courses. There are insurance approved Instructors that have programs that use a combination of computer based training for the equipment you have onboard, and the airplane for the real world stuff.

      Take a vacation in Hawaii and I will Fly with. Fly Safe.

      Keep’em Flying

      Pat

      Pat,

      As you know, engine failures at or just after rotation are quite a bit more exciting than engines lost at altitude. How do you train for those in the airplane? Do you ever pull an engine from full power to no power in training? 100′ AGL? In IMC?

      I can tell you in my experience, training in the aircraft did not prepare me for the aggressive maneuvering required that I learned from drilling losing engines on takeoff at Simcom. In fact, my first engine out attempt in the sim left me wondering how I would have done in real life prior to that training.

      All sims are not alike. The Simcom 421 Sim is built with C421001 (the actual cockpit) and is very good.

      Best,

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